bookofholsety: this post is a Thracia 776 translation (ced fe5!)
[personal profile] bookofholsety
(last edited 11-6-2016)

let's face it, as much as i profess to not give a shit about namewank anymore, i was going to have to do this sooner or later. i was hoping this would wait until the complete translation was in patch form, but eh

i should reiterate that i am absolutely not open to any suggestions/demands/begging with respect to changing my changes. i cannot emphasise this enough. fe4's patch is out the door, and while i'm still editing the script, the names are done. finished. set in stone. changing them now is much, much more trouble than it's worth. fe5 is still obviously a work in progress, but the same goes for it as well because i'm not interested in having it beleaguered by endless namewank when frankly, we all have much better things to focus on.

i also want to mention that i did not take this lightly at all. i've been around the fire emblem block more than a few times, and i've seen again and again just how apeshit people go over namewank. where i felt a tweak or outright change was needed, i spent a damn long time mulling it over and grappling with whether or not it was really worth punching the fe fandom in the snout. when you spend three years working on a thing, that gives you an absolutely obscene amount of time to think, research and plan, to thoroughly vet your ideas to make sure you haven't just gotten your dick bitten off for basically no reason. i knew exactly what i was doing when i made these changes, i did the research and i talked most of them through with people who know what they're talking about

also, yes, names inevitably change in translation. this includes fan translations, believe it or not. sometimes a name needs to be tweaked to properly make the reference the original work intended, and for the most part this is what i was concerned with and what i did

All names given by Awakening

this is pretty common knowledge by now, but in case this is the first you've heard about it: fe13 included a sizable collection of bonus characters from previous fire emblem games, which ended up being the first time any content from fe4 or fe5 has ever been featured in officially localised english material. namewank ensued. some were changed, some weren't. here, have a comprehensive list because i'm lazy. if it's a change and i don't mention it below, it probably came from fe13.

these are indisputable official english canon, because frankly, asserting that the a chunk of the contents of an actual fire emblem game is in some way illegitimate compared to the rest of that game is objectively ridiculous. you can't get any more official than an official fire emblem release.  because of this, as far as i'm concerned, there's no sense in not using them. part of the impetus for these translations is to make the games more accessible to newcomers (as opposed to the current patches being rather intimidating and off-putting in how rough and unpolished they are), and odds are there are plenty of people who'll play fe4/5 after coming from fe13 and being introduced to the characters there. hell, one of the patch's editors did exactly that!

unsurprisingly, the spotpass contributions' quality, relevance and justification have been debated vigorously for over three years now.  i'm tempted to launch into a bit of a defence of them, but frankly i just don't care enough anymore to even tweak and repost some age-old draft i have on the subject. i'm certainly not about to claim they're all 100% perfect, because they are a bit of a mixed bag... you know, just like every other batch of fire emblem localisation decisions ever. a solid majority of them are identical or near-identical to what japanese material calls them, and a lot of the time they're even correcting long standing mistakes by japanese material and fans (eg "aless"). i have my issues with a few of the names, and hell, i can't stand fe13 itself, but none of that's important at this point. seriously, it's been three years now. relax. "ced" is not the end of the world

by the way, if the new tcg gets localised and the fe4 set somehow gets brought over, i'll at least consider adopting those as well. but let's face it, what are the odds of that happening?

Fury/Ferry -> Erin

yeah, this is the big one. the only complete 100% change in the entire translation. this is my vergil, except unlike the heroes of shadow, i'm sticking with this one

okay, first of all, fury is not a fucking name. fury is a goddamn emotional state. fury is something that comical mario villains scream to the point of being endlessly quoted. that's reason #1 why i made this change; were fe4 to be officially localised, there is no way in hell she would still be called "fury" for exactly this reason. similarly, not only is "ferry" not a fucking name, but it's also a really bad approximation of the katakana, which quite literally say "fury" (and the character can't even do any ferrying because rescuing doesn't exist in fe4)

another concern i had is the nature of the character the names are being applied to. fury just doesn't have much in the way of... well, fury. she's mild-mannered and polite to a fault. maybe somebody like ayra could've gotten away with literally being named after a word for anger (by which i mean that's exactly what happened), but not the firstgen pegasus knight

that said, the name "fury" does make a pretty obvious mythological nod: the furies of roman mythology, the vengeful goddesses of the underworld. fortunately this one was really obvious: in greek, the furies are known as the "erinyes", which conveniently starts with a very nice, well-known (if not common) english name. boom, change secured. it makes the exact same reference, it sounds infinitely better. additionally, separate from greco-roman mythology, erin as a given name has a very irish history which makes it a good fit with the game's many references to irish mythology

Tweaks for mythlogical references

fe4 makes a lot of nods to irish and norse mythology with its character names. the problem is, if you believe the tcg or the common fan names, they really butchered them. we all make fun of the tcg and other japanese material for calling our hero "siglud", and these are pretty much the exact same deal as that. this sort of thing had to be fixed.

quick look at each of these and what i went with
  • Tiltyu/Tailto -> Taillte
  • tailtiu is an irish goddess (fun fact: a really old build of the fe4 patch properly called the character "tailtiu"). "taillte" is a modernised spelling of the goddess's name, and when looking at my options for her, i really took to that spelling so i used it
  • Briggid -> Bridget
  • there's a lot of variant spellings for this particular irish goddess, but there's no particular reason i chose "bridget". i think it was to make it easier to find/replace it later once i actually reached a decision on it, but "bridget" grew on me so here we are. it's a modern-ish anglicisation of the name and an entirely legitimate form of the goddess's name
  • Corple/Corpul -> Cairpre
  • irish given name used by quite a few legendary figures. of the variant spellings, "cairpre" was picked for being pretty close to the katakana (which specifies a p sound rather than a b sound) and being fairly simple to pronounce (no, really)
  • Delmud -> Dermott
  • this name is taken from an irish given name taken from the irish mythological warrior diarmuid ua duibhne, and has a fuckton of variant and descendant spellings. "dermott" is an anglicisation which is pretty common as part of the surname "mcdermott". the fe4 character is a very plain guy, so it's only fitting that he gets a very plain form of the name instead of something more elaborate
  • Teeny/Tinny -> Tinni
  • this one's relevance eluded me for a damned long time and i nearly completely changed it to something different because, as with erin, "tinny" and "teeny" are not fucking names. except i was kind of sort of vaguely proven wrong in the former case; tinni mac conri was an ancient king of the irish province of connacht
  • Pahn/Pirn -> Pan
  • come on, i think we all know this one
  • Eyrios -> Ilios
  • "ilios" is, of course, the greek name for the ancient city of troy. it's pretty obvious that this is what the katakana was meant to be

Spelling changes

sometimes it's less a matter of mythological reference, and more just a name in general being slightly off... or in the case of fe4/5, waaaaaaay off
  • Andorey/Andrei -> André
  • another really obvious change to make it an actual goddamn name
  • Johalva -> Johalvier
  • i can't for the life of me remember where i saw it, but even long before i started translating, this spelling really stuck with me so here we are. it looks nicer than johalva, at least
  • Leen -> Lene
  • it's an actual scandinavian given name for women that's pronounced exactly the same way as "leen" (well, unless you're finnish). this wouldn't have happened if not for this piece of fanart; the artist spelt her name "lene" and i decided that i REALLY liked that. i did a fuckton of research to see if it was justified as a legitimate take on the pronunciation, and it was so here we are
  • Janne -> Jeanne
  • turning a misspelled thing into an actual name that's basically identical. yawn
  • Hawk -> Hawke
  • "hawk" is vaguely acceptable as an actual name, but "hawke" is a form of it that is 100% an actual name
  • Safy/Saphy -> Sapphie
  • the other spellings are fucking horrible. padding it out a bit made it look a lot nicer. resemblance to sappho is purely coincidental, but said coincidence is absolutely beautiful
  • Carrion/Carion -> Callion
  • mark explains a lot better than i could:

    "You aren’t really going to send that poor cute little cavalier baby into the world with the worst name in all of Fire Emblem, a name whose literal meaning is “dead decaying flesh,” are you? Are you???"

    seriously, i wouldn't wish that upon ANYONE
  • Lifis/Rifis -> Lithis
  • see sapphie
  • Sleuf -> Sroufe
  • this one baffled me for ages until ammie solved the mystery. it's an eastern european surname, as i recall
  • Kein -> Kane and Alva -> Alba
  • the former was an obvious butchering of "cain" the biblical figure, but fe already has a cain so i went with the "kane" spelling to clearly differentiate him from his red-cav ancestor. the latter is actually spelled "alba" in katakana, so between that and the existence of an alva in fe4 already, this was the way to go
  • Sara -> Sarah
  • purely personal preference, to better distinguish her from lara. come on, both are such common names that this should come as no shock to anybody
  • Machyua -> Mathia
  • completely changed because seriously what the fuck is going on here it's basically a total mess. my thought process was basically: "chu" sound -> "tu" sound, but since "matua" would've sounded just as stupid, i just pushed it a bit more and turned it into a "thi" sound to make it sound vaguely decent. this isn't the first time this has happened; shaya's old fe5 patch turned her into "makua", possibly for the same reason! that's right, you've all been playing a NAME CHANGE all along :O
  • Dalsin/Dashin -> Dahlson
  • slightly tweaked spelling to turn it into an actual name. hey, it's less extreme than the old patch's "dashin" was!

Names I didn't change

just for the sake of illustration, here's a quick list of all the major characters who i completely left alone (with the officially named characters in fe13 excluded because obviously those weren't leaving things alone)
  • Noish
  • Alec
  • Oifey
  • Azel
  • Lex
  • Aideen
  • Midir
  • Dew
  • Shanan
  • Holyn
  • Beowulf
  • Sylvia
  • Claude
  • Radney
  • Lana
  • Mana
  • Tristan
  • Lester
  • Dimna
  • Amid
  • Femina
  • Johan
  • Patty
  • Daisy
  • Linda
  • Faval
  • Asaello
  • Hannibal
  • Sharlow
  • Reptor
  • Ring
  • Byron
  • Azmur
  • Kurth
  • Sigyn
  • Victor
  • Aida
  • Manfroy
  • Blume
  • Dannan
  • Brian
  • Ishtar
  • Ishtore
  • Hilda
  • Arion
  • Halvan
  • Tanya
  • Marty
  • Ronan
  • Brighton
  • Karin
  • Lara
  • Fergus
  • Asvel
  • Hicks
  • Shiva
  • Selphina
  • Robert
  • Fred
  • Trude
  • Tina
  • Glade
  • Dean
  • Eda
  • Homer
  • Linoan
  • Ralph
  • Shanam
  • Miranda
  • Xavier
  • Amalda
  • Conomore
  • Galzus
  • Veld
  • Kempf
  • Reinhardt
in hindsight, i really should've renamed more characters and ruined more lives forever...

Place names

because of the world map graphics, changing a place name means that in most cases a graphical edit or two will be necessary as well. while it isn't THAT hard, i figured it was for the best to keep changes here to a minimum, which is just as well since very few relevant ones actually came up
  • Conote -> Connaught
  • the former is just a siglud-isation of the latter, one of the traditional provinces of ireland. i went with "connaught" because it's a relatively antiquated and outmoded spelling, in keeping with the theme of the four states of the manster district being "the irish provinces but not quite"
  • Mease/Meace/Meeds -> Meath
  • even though this fe castle isn't located in north thracia, where all the irish place names are, "meath" is the english name of a former kingdom in ireland which is the namesake of a modern county. i actually only found this out later after changing the fe castle name; originally it was just a matter of personal preference based on issues with the various names prior translations and official material had assigned the castle
  • Peruluke -> Perlucos
  • this one was partially ammie's idea. she pointed out that it feels very katakana-ish and clunky compared to basically every other character and place name in the game (both before and after i came to ruin things), which are all very western european, and that it felt out of place. i then noticed it feels doubly out of place, since the rest of miletos has an extremely strong greek vibe to its naming scheme, so i figured it'd be worth tweaking peruluke a bit to get something that fits the pattern. not that it matters much, if at all. seriously, it's peruluke. nobody cares about peruluke.
  • Melfiye -> Millefeuille
  • do you like cake? i'd imagine intsys does, since this is by far the best match for whatever the katakana are trying to say. imo, art least, the decision to name a forest after a french phrase which translates to "thousand leaves" is pretty cute, even if french influence otherwise isn't much of a thing in jugdral

Item and class names

seriously, who gives a shit

In conclusion

okay, now that you've most likely read the entire thing, here have a more detailed chart documenting who's called what in what language

Date: 2015-08-05 05:57 pm (UTC)
hilow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hilow
I think all of these changes are great. Plus I laughed at some of your "explanations" which weren't necessary imo but did add some goodness to this post. Nice job.

Date: 2015-08-05 07:30 pm (UTC)
hakkari: used for ace attorney posts/personal (Default)
From: [personal profile] hakkari
I was actually kind of curious about some of the reasonings on some of the changes (mostly because I was curious about the mythology) so thank you for this :o I still want to know where Ced came from, though. I know it's not your name but there had to be a reason behind that one, right?

You know I did kind of wonder why they didn't go with Sarah with an 'h' originally (or even Sarai which was the original Biblical name before it was changed) since Sara is actually usually just a misspelling in the Biblical texts.

I mean I dunno if it was meant as a Biblical reference or not but usually when you use Sarah alongside a bunch of mythology that's what it's referring to (wife of Abraham and all that).

Maybe it was just another one of the take a name and toss it in kind of things (ie Tinny/Teeny)? I dunno. It's still interesting, though.

Also wasn't Leen originally translated as Lynn and then they changed it because of FE7!Lyn? Either way it seems like that name has been bounced around enough that it's not that big of a deal.

It's nice to have a side by side comparison list of what was changed vs what wasn't, too. i can't believe that hicks is an actual name why

Date: 2015-08-06 02:29 am (UTC)
hakkari: used for ace attorney posts/personal (Default)
From: [personal profile] hakkari
i just looked it up, and apparently "sara" was originally the biblical latin form of the name. you're right in that it'd be interesting to see if there was a reason they went with "sara" specifically, but then again, the siglud rule might be in effect here again :P

Hm, really? Didn't know that one. I knew that the spelling of Sara(h) swaps a couple times since the 'h' version means like "chief" but I didn't know that the version without the h was the original Latin. Interesting. I'm surprised they didn't go Sarai because of the whole cursed blood thing but that might've been a bit too deep to search for a reference + the Siglud issue, I suppose.

she was later changed to "leen", but as i understand it, that was more spurred on by one of the j2e guys making the decision to change everyone's name to match the noj names in the then-newly released card game, and of course that's where "leen" comes from

Yeah I always thought it was odd since Leen isn't... really a name as far as I'm aware (unless she's supposed to be named after the Dutch word for feudal estate I guess) but it's pretty much pronounced the same as Lynn (at least when I say it) so I guess I kind of assumed that they just changed it because of Lyn.

incidentally, i believe the release of the tcg and that revision is also when people started calling our secondgen hero "celice", and from what i've heard, surprise surprise, people argued about THAT one as well back in the day! fandom. fandom never changes

You know I can understand the arguments for Celice because at least that's a name but Serlis sounds like a weird sort of flu or something. I mean it looks like it's an actual last name but still.
From: [personal profile] kiddocabbusses
Hey, new poster to here, um, here. (I'm one of the guys involved in the first translation attempts of the BS Fire Emblem transcripts, from before more detailed/formatted/correct material came along)

I don't know how helpful this is, but I tried looking up the name "Ced" on because, strange as this sounds, this is pretty helpful in figuring out if a name is "real" per se.

"What does Ced mean?

Ced \ced\ as a name for boys is of Old English origin, and the name Ced means "kind and loved". Ced is a variant of Cedric (Old English). Rather quirky as a baby name.

Ced has 10 alternative forms via Cedric: Caddaric, Cedrick▼, Cedrik, Cedro, Rick▼, Rickey▼, Ricky▲, Sedric, Sedrick and Sedrik.

Ced is a rare given name for men. Ced is a unique last name too for all people. (2000 U.S. Census)"

And for extra research points:
"What does Cedric mean?

Cedric \ce(d)-ric\ as a boys' name is pronounced SED-rik. It is of Old English origin, and the meaning of Cedric is "kind and loved". The name was invented by Sir Walter Scott for the character Cedric of Rotherwood in the book "Ivanhoe" (1819). It appears to be from Cerdic, the name of the traditional founder of the kingdom of Wessex. Cerdic was a Saxon, and his name could also have been of Germanic origin, though it is uncertain. However Cedric can also be associated with the Welsh name Cedrych meaning "pattern of bounty". The name later acquired a "sissy" image due to Cedric Errol Fauntleroy, the long-haired, velvet-suited boy hero of Frances Hodgson Burnett's 1886 novel "Little Lord Fauntleroy". See also Kedrick. Actor Sir Cedric Hardwicke; Cedric the Comedian."

I don't want to dig any further than that, but it at least makes it apparent that 1) It's a real name, even if ridiculously obscure, and 2) It seems fitting for the character it was assigned to.

Incidentally, I can't find Fury or Ferry or whatever in this, so you are indeed right in that not being a name. (Then again, I can't find Tinni on it either....)
mark_asphodel: Sage King Leaf (Default)
From: [personal profile] mark_asphodel
Yeah, I looked "Ced" up during the first round of DLC namewank, read that it meant "gift" and decided it was better than it looked.

Date: 2015-08-06 05:39 pm (UTC)
amielleon: The three heroes of Tellius. (Default)
From: [personal profile] amielleon
Actually iirc Sroufe was the Ellis Island bastardization of Schroff (German) and you liked it better for some reason.

Overlooked Shadow Dragon callback?

Date: 2016-02-19 04:15 am (UTC)
topazlight: Dantei Petra Icon (Default)
From: [personal profile] topazlight
So I was going through the name chart, and I noticed there was a boss(?) named Gomez, which I recognized as being the Japanese name of a character from Shadow Dragon. As it turns out, the katakana for the name is exactly the same in both games (ゴメス), but in the official translation of Shadow Dragon, the name was translated as Gomer, with an R instead of a Z. I know this is totally inconsequential and I'm not even sure it really counts as an official name translation since it's not the same character, and Gomez is also a real, regular name, but on the offchance that it might be of interest to you I felt I'd drop this here.
Of course, I totally understand if you don't care and/or if you're just plain not changing any more names at this point no matter what. He is only a minor boss who the player will probably forget mere minutes after killing him, after all, so it doesn't really matter.
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